BY MAZI TONY OHAKWE
Chief Executive Officer of Morbod Group, Barr. (Mrs.) Margaret Orakwusi was Guest Speaker at the League of Maritime Editors and Publishers (LOMEP) “Roundtable”, recently.
Orakwusi noted that foreign poachers stealing Nigerian marine resources have succeeded so far because of the lack of desire by international regulatory bodies and receivers of these stolen products overseas to identify the thieves.
She also told LOMEP Roundtable, a monthly showcase of intellectual and occupational conversation with maritime stakeholders, that the theft of Nigerian fishes is also compounded by the activities of maritime insecurities, such as the robbing of trawlers at will, because they are not allowed to sail with armed guards.
A reporter’s delight, the former Chairman of Nigeria Fishing Trawler Owners Association (NIFTOA) also spoke about how NIFTOA lost the ‘Kirikiri Fishing Terminal’ approved by the government to tank farm owners.
She worried that the tank farms in Apapa Port District may as well be a disaster waiting to happen. Concerned, unapologetic and erudite, the Nigerian Queen of the Coast spoke on a wide range of other industry issues. Enjoy the conversation. Mazi Tony Ohakwe was there and reports. Excerpts:
How do you see the maritime industry under the Hon. Minister for Transportation, Rotimi Amaechi (Rt.Hon)?
I commend the Hon. Minister for his achievements so far, because he came in not being a maritime person but he’s been humbled to study and know the gaps to fill in.
The fishing industry seems to have been quiet for some time, is the problem lack of conducive environment? And speaking about enabling environment, what are the interventions by the federal necessary to harness the sub sector’s full potentials?
I’ll start by saying why it is necessary to pay attention to the fishing sector. Firstly, fish is the cheapest source of protein. There is currently a huge gap between demand and supply and most people believe it’s about 50 percent but it’s much more than that. So, it shows the potentials for investors to come in, it shows there’s a huge market that we fishers are unable to satisfy, It also shows that this is an area that needs infrastructural development. When we entered the fishing industry, for instance, things were cheap, an investor can decide to invest millions of dollars with confidence. There was once a time in this country we were changing a dollar for 60 kobo but today it’s between #400 to #500 to a dollar. Then, there was no infrastructure put in place and till now it’s still the same. Those of us who entered at that early stage identified all these issues. We travelled out of the country because our market was not in Nigeria. We bought trawlers abroad because the foreign exchange then was cheap, we sold our shellfish that is prawns, lobsters etc in the international market in dollars. But when your cost of production is always on the increase and you compete with people from other nations where their cost of production is low, automatically you’ve lost completely to them. The cost of production I’m talking about, for example, the foreign exchange rate in Nigeria. You go to the bank to borrow money at 10 to 20 per cent to buy a piece of equipment but somebody in another country is being encouraged or begged to come and borrow money at 2 per cent, and at the end of the day both individuals meet in the international markets to sell, what do you think it’s going to happen? We have also tried to study why these people are been offered lower interest rates? Why are they been given tax holidays? Why are they been encouraged? But the answers to that are simple; we just don’t get it in Nigeria. From my perspective, it’s to create employment, to conserve foreign exchange and to drive efficiency. When you employ people, they strive to give their best but when they’re idle, like the saying… an idle hand is the devil’s workshop. The rate of crime is on the rise, our leaders should encourage any business that is adding value to our country. When we noticed what was going on, we approached the government and we proposed fishing terminal for fishing produce. What that means is that whoever wants to go into fishing only needs to buy a vessel and every other services are provided at the terminal. So, it’ll be a case of pay as you go. Unlike what some of us are experiencing, we buy our trawlers, we pay for jetties, we provide our mechanical and carpentry workshop, fuel dump, cold room, fire service etc. all these are too much for an investor. Which investor can afford all these in this present economy? Our government in their wisdom dedicated a place in Kikrikiri to serve as fishing terminals. By the way, countries who are seriously into fishing has terminals, Ghana, our neighbour has, but we all know how things have a way of going wrong in this country. We don’t know what eventually played out, we started seeing tank farms being erected by “powerful people.” As far as I am concerned these powerful people are saboteurs of the general public. A dedicated terminal that will serve the interest of everybody, grow the fishing industry, accommodate all aspects of everything needed to make the fishing business easy like carpentry, mechanic, fire service, rope repair etc. was turned into something else. These are some of the things I believe have made the fishing business very cumbersome. Another thing is piracy attacks. We were the first to experience piracy attack in Nigeria, and when it happened we cried out but we were not taken seriously. But it’s easy to understand that because it’s a new form of incidence happening on the water. We have suffered losses such as human lives, equipment, vessels etc. This kidnappings that is all over the news started from the seas because our people were usually taken, ransomed demanded. We cried but nothing happened and it has really affected the numbers of fish trawlers and fishing companies we have in the country because most them have relocated to safe environment.
What was responsible for the relocation you just talked about?
Of course, a businessman is in business to make money and if the climate is not safe he relocates. The few who are remaining are driven by “patriotism” but even then they’re one leg in the country and the other outside. You should also know that most people fishing in the country are expatriates, so the capital flight is a different thing. These are the things that have contributed to the decline you see in fishing in the country. It breaks my heart and I’ll tell you why. There was a time industrial fishing was the second in foreign exchange earnings in the non-oil sector in this country. People should be learning from what we’re doing, our activities are highly regulated by Nigeria and other countries we export our products to. We fly the Nigerian flag with pride; it is on record that no seafood cleared by Nigerian fishery lab has failed analysis anywhere in the world.
The Nigerian Fishery Laboratory was set up by us and the government. That’s one of the few government-stakeholders partnerships that was up to class. So, when people cried that Nigerian agricultural produce are being rejected, I said oh, we should study where it is working perfectly. It didn’t come easy to see, it came very expensive, but we complied with the requirements of the European Union (EU). Everything we do is according to their standard.
How do you feel been a fisherman?
I’m a very proud fisherwoman as my children call me today. It gives me more satisfaction to be involved in what our people are eating and that brings me to the quality of the products that we import into this country. What we export is highly regulated but what we import are cheap products that would not pass analysis. At times you hear the women in Ijora screaming because these are products that are not fit for human consumption, some of them are caught in all sorts of contaminated environments. Nobody is checking and we all know these. We should not continue to feed our people with cheap imported products. I can today beat my chest that with the analysis of my products and the certificate I can go anywhere in the world because daily we analyze the water before we start fishing, we batch them but who does that for the products being sent into the country?
Talking about safety of imported fishes did you and your people alerted the government on this?
Government is aware; the point is what should the checks be? At least, when they bring in products, they should be examined before it’s passed on for consumption. The products that we export are checked right from the vessel. The vessels are given an export number. The staff such as the seamen undergoes periodic medical checks and we must tender all these results. These are nations that care about what their people eat. The products are certified. There was a time Europe wanted to ban seafood from Nigeria, their reason was that there must be a scientific independent run laboratory and without them certifying your products, it isn’t going anywhere. There was a time America banned seafood from Nigeria. Some of us had to take federal government’s delegation to the US to go and argue it out. Their reason was that our trawlers are fishing without a turtle exploder device and that turtle was an endangered species. We all know the behavioural pattern of turtles, we fish in the deep sea and these turtles are not there. During their breeding period, they come ashore but because you don’t argue with the market you’re patronizing, we had to go there for negotiation. We asked them to teach us to use the turtle exploder device and through their embassy here, that was done. That shows you the country that cares not just for its people but also the fish in the water.
What steps did NIFTOA take about the dedicated fishing terminals that were taking over by owners of tanks farms? And the fishing companies relocating to a safer area, is it in another part of the country or outside the country?
If I’m investing huge money into a business, even if I can’t make a profit, the government should put me in a position where I can recover my capital. I’ll give you two incidences as examples. I’ve lost two vessels in this environment and it wasn’t easy. When I was President of NIFTOA, I don’t want to relate the two incidents but some people believe maybe the way I was fighting the pirates, always talking, in the forefront; maybe that was why it happened. One of my vessels was blown up; I lost five fantastic seamen, one of the best Captains in this country. I just want you to know the kind of environment we worked in. Kidnapping on the sea is terrible, at times they lock crew members in the cold room and they freeze to death. At times some are thrown overboard, these are husbands and fathers. And when we talk about maritime security people don’t pay attention to it. Like I told one of the military people, I said you people need to up your game, the pirates have a regional connection, they now have an association so to say. When their brothers take a vessel before you start looking for it here in Nigeria, their partners from Ghana have taken over. But that is not to undermine the efforts that are being done to tackle insecurity especially with the Deep Blue Project, because that’s what we have been crying for. We need intelligence gathering, these pirates do not drop from heaven, they live on the ground so let’s start following them because why is piracy a lucrative business? It’s easy to understand, we the trawlers are vulnerable because when we’re trawling, and the sea pirates are coming it takes time to hole up and by the time you know it they’re on our vessels. And we’re not allowed to carry armed security so nobody to challenge them. You cannot carry armed security on a civilian vessel. My excitement about the Deep Blue Project is that at least let there be a challenge for the pirates and if they get it right we may begin to see a drop in criminal activities out there on the seas. Another thing is poaching. I’ve cried about this, we have these big vessels from Europe, Asia and other parts of the world coming into this country to steal our natural resources unchallenged. My vessel cannot enter Togo by mistake, they’ll seize it because I’m not flying their flag but these people because they’re big, they’ll come in, do their business and leave. We have called on the international community that they can’t sit back because we don’t have the muscle to arrest that situation. And why is this, whatever products we catch we sell in the international market and it can be traced so the big question is where do the thieves from Europe and Asia find market to sell their stolen items? It’s like an international conspiracy and they fish irregularly and irresponsibly, undocumented. But what we do is if we take a prawn we document and we’re not allowed to fish anyhow, we cannot take the juveniles or the big ones that lay the eggs and that is why we have to use approved nets but who is checking all that for them? We have all these issues and when we highlight them probably we’ll find a solution.
What has government gone to curtail the situation?
We have the Deep Blue Project. Security out there on the sea is a very expensive venture. I gave a talk in one of the African countries on poaching and sea piracy and by the time I finished I was shocked by the observation of someone during question time. He said, “Madam your people are lucky that they come, steal and go, here they use dynamite on our waters”. So, it’s not a Nigerian problem, it’s global. The UN must wake up and find a way around this, at least blacklist these people. If you can follow my products from any market I’m selling into and I document, what stops them from asking what environment are they bringing in their stolen items. It’s very easy for them to do if they want to do it and that’s why I always ask them is this a second type of slavery? The first one you came for our able-bodied men, now you’re coming to steal our best resources. I think it’s wrong.
Assets have been acquired and deployed under the Deep Blue Project, what’s your advice to make it a success?
So far it’s like starting from the ground, from zero. I know they’ve been training some people to utilize the assets to serve its mandate and the good thing is that it’s our citizens that are been trained and not foreigners. The training cuts across all the armed forces including the Police and Department of State Service (DSS) also, there’s this cooperation between the Federal Ministry of Transportation through Nigerian Maritime Administration and Safety Agency (NIMASA) and the military and that’s what we’ve been advocating, that agencies should come together to arrest whatever situation we’re facing. In this project, we can all see it happening. I’ve looked at the nature of their training and I’m satisfied. Some pirates have been convicted under the Suppression of Piracy and Other Maritime Offences (SPOMO) Act, though coming late, but it cheers us up and give us that confidence that we can now go back to the sea with full force. Remember this problem has been there for many years so we need to appreciate the efforts made so far and encourage them, and as stakeholders, we should contribute our quota and be able to advise them when things are not working so, I called on the traditional rulers especially those of them in the riverine areas and where these pirates take off from, to provide the right intelligence. The traditional rulers should wake up to their responsibilities and help this nation to succeed in the Deep Blue Project.
There has been talks about funding as a major constraints, what effort has your association made to take advantage of the Cabotage Vessels Financing Fund (CVFF)?
Well, I’m part of it. I serve in the ministerial committee and the law is there. It has stated who the contributors are; it has stated what the fund should be used for so if there’s an attempt to use the fund for something else it’ll be unlawful. We’re covered by the law but I believe that the challenge is with the disbursement. Who do we disburse to? You’ll not blame anybody for being too careful because we’ve gone through that route before and it’s so unfortunate. It’s a good provision in the law. We the contributors are contributing because we believed in it and there must be accountability. I am one of the few people saying it cannot be business as usual for all the parties involved. NIMASA should give us an account of how much the project has generated so far because those that have been contributing are still alive and some of them have their records. Even if its ten naira that we’ve contributed so far, they should announce it, and if it’s no longer available then that’s another case entirely. They’ve called for some people to do some processing but we’re patiently watching.
How would you assess the performance of the DBP since the commissioning, in view of IMB report that piracy in the Gulf of Guinea is still high, doesn’t that sound contradictory?
You know I’m in the private sector and I can decide to take an instant decision but it’s not the same with the government. It’s not just about the Ministry of Transportation, we also have the armed forces and the result is time loss. When you have to go through a chain of command to make things happen the consequence is time loss. But, with the way and manner, things are going; the psychological effects alone can drain the pirates and sea robbers. So we should be encouraged. At times I get upset when I read reports from the people that are not in this country, we should all be very careful and stand up for Nigeria. I know some business-minded individuals that based on what they’ve been reading about Nigeria they have fled to other African countries. I once had a visitor and I know what it took me to convince that person to stay. I would also challenge the press to highlight those few things that’ll attract foreign investors into the country to create employment. We read about companies relocating to other African countries but have we thought about the job losses, revenue loss and all that. It has a ripple effect so we should try to project our image in a positive light. In my own opinion, they’re on track but I think we the stakeholders need to push them forward. The press should do their investigations and if they find out things are not going as planned they can inform some of us and we’ll engage the authorities. This is our industry.
The war risk insurance premium issue has turned a commercial interest. What is your suggestion on how best to stop it?
I think through the Nigerian Shippers’ Council (NSC) which I am part of. There are discussions currently going on about it, but remember that this is commerce, they cover everything under war risk insurance. The vessel that’s supposed to use few days at our port now ends up using months before leaving, all these are part of the insurance which brings us to the issue of automation. I’m also a lawyer and I handle some of the cases relating to insurance. The way agencies of government board the vessels are also not giving us a good image. I have an incident with one of the agencies to renew a certificate of registry. I don’t know much about our members but my experience is that my staff has gone up to seven times, and these are things that can be automated. Also on the fishing boat survey, the renewal of registration as a shipping company is done annually. All these things seem small but if you add all the manpower and time loss you’ll realise it’s something. If they’re automated and human interference is removed, it’ll save time for everyone. Now we’re calling for 24 hours port operation but without our process being automated it won’t happen. NSC has been looking for solutions towards this but then you know it’s difficult to do away with old business practices, especially the ones that are lucrative. We are all aware of what corruption is doing in this country.
On average how many days does it take to register or renew registration?
I think the situation is not better. The last vessel I bought was from America, I had to keep the crew of that vessel in a hotel for about two months. It was like a quarrel and street fight to get it done but that was then probably the situation might have changed. These are problems that shouldn’t be there in the first place, it’s not just from the Ministry of Transportation, it cuts across. At a stage I had to go to the Economic and Financial Crime Commission (EFCC), I explained to the director then and he called for the release of my documents. I’m planning to write a book to document all these because people should begin to appreciate what we’ve been through in business with good intentions. At my age I shouldn’t be venturing into a new business but because we want to create job opportunities as the government is not employing. The private sector should be encouraged and not discouraged.
Where are the delays coming from?
The delay came from everywhere, the Ministry of Finance, the Nigerian Customs Service (NCS), the regulatory agencies. All these people will come to play to achieve our purpose. I just told you how long and cumbersome to just renew these certificates, it’s something we don’t have to leave the comfort of our office before it’s done. How long does it take to clear a container at the port compared to our neighbouring countries and every day we ask why are cargoes being diverted to our neighbouring countries. We generate cargoes but we don’t carry them, our banks and insurance companies are losing, the legal profession is also losing because, in the contract with foreigners, arbitration is not in Nigeria. All these I’ve stated are issues regarding export. We are all aware that most of the goods going to our neighbouring countries end up in Nigeria, our population makes us an attractive market anytime, anyway, but then we need to get infrastructures in place, we need to get the automation done, we need to drive efficiency into the services we render. At times we go to the service desk to make enquiries and we’ll be told the person in charge is not on sit, our staff might end up going there over again and it’ll still be the same result, they at times might have an issue with immediate bosses and unleash the anger on customers. All these come into play. Corruption does not end up with the money, it’s the system that’s not in place. Personally, any system that’s not in place is a corrupt system. In maritime time is money, you delay a vessel for one day you’ll lose a lot of money and nobody cares. I don’t need to come to see your pretty face for me to do my business, even if I need to come to your office, you must be on sit on official hours and if for any reason you fail then you apologize to me because this is one thing that is wrong in this country.
We have the African Continental Free Trade Agreement (AfCTA) and every sector is on the lookout to maximise the opportunities around it. From the pricing efficiency, do we have the opportunity for the fishing industry?
First, the market is huge, the annual turnover will be huge. But the question is are we ready for it? Do we even appreciate the technicalities? Where does our strength lie because we can’t jump in as masters of all trade! We also have MORBOD ferries, we’re developing infrastructure whereby we can be able to move passengers and goods, have storage for produce and other things. We need a lot of jetties like that because we’re now opening up to other countries, some people were initially afraid about cheap products being dumped here and won’t be competitive. I’m of a different view, I don’t run away from competition, it drives me because if I don’t compete I’ll feel I’m the king in the world which won’t make me grow. We have to look inward and know what we tender as comparative advantage. Do we have the infrastructure now? The answer is no. Are we doing something about it, do we have the infrastructure to move goods either by water, roads or rail? We should at least tap into the mode of transportation. We cannot claim we do cassava, cocoa yam, yam and the likes more than every other African country. We need to study, and that’s how you know people who are good in business because they smell opportunities. I can’t buy anything in the Nigerian open market to eat, why do you think those products can pass analysis to enable some other persons to buy them. I’ll tell you why, I once saw coconut, a small one and a big one. I pointed to the big one and she said madam #100 while the small one is #350. I didn’t know I was illiterate when it comes to some products so I started shouting saying this small one is #350 and the lady said this small coconut is from Ghana. There’s also another fruit they called Udala, there’s thus very sweet and clean one from Cotonue, the same quantity you might end up paying #5,000 but the Nigerian species you can get it for #500 or #1, 000. If you look at this, must we say we have a filthy market? You see where they slaughter goats and cows compared to other nations. We need to add small value and make the money. Let’s come back and get it right. Somebody like me doesn’t have to buy goat meat in the market and wash it like 20 times with salt and water before I can eat it. Some of the things we eat, I bet you if you go to the open market where they sell them, you’ll rather starve. There’s a need to start adding packaging, keeping it clean, and lets go out there in other African countries and compete. I’m happy about the AfCTA, all I want is for the government to provide necessary infrastructures for businessmen and women because they’re going into a very large market. And for Africa, it’s a plus.
Some stakeholders believe our maritime lawyers are obsolete, what’s your take on that and the challenges facing them?
I agree with that but we’re all doing something in our small area like fishery law. Most laws are old but I keep telling people even with the old laws if the implementation is efficient then we can begin to amend. To sponsor a bill is not cheap, this is a fact but the necessary one I was reading in the papers on coast guard bill, without even knowing the details I’m happy with it because some of us have been calling for the establishment of coast guards. What we experience out there on the sea is not just the issue of security, how about safety issues? At times you hear about accidents on the water and people drowned, what attempt did the concerned agencies take? Who do we point fingers at for any failure? A lot of incidences happen, at times a vessel might catch fire, do we have a fire fighting craft to go to their rescue? Or something happens to a vessel on the high sea and you’re calling for help but no response, this is something that has happened to me in the past. If you’re lucky a vessel from an international country will tow the vessel because that’s the law. These are live expectations that make someone like me wonder, I hope they don’t come for me but why do I pay tax? These are services I am entitled to. So, it’ll be good to know that if there’s a failure here you can point to one organization and monitor what they’re doing but at the same time, we have to be careful of overlapping of functions.
Sadly, our tank farms are not impediments to fishing industry alone, it’s also part of the Apapa port roads gridlock. What is the way out?
Without sounding like a prophet of doom, Apapa is like an accident waiting to happen. We all know it. Some of us have also abandoned our offices in Apapa. Apapa is also a commercial city for the country because over 60 per cent of the goods we use in this country come in through Apapa port so it’s not like a small place. Apapa is a commercial city, it houses residences, tank farms and the nation’s port. Let’s be frank about it, these things don’t go together. And we need to understand and appreciate that in future development because I don’t think anything is going to happen differently in Apapa but we also need to highlight the dangers so that more approvals for tank farms would not be given. Let’s be sure that the existing ones we have comply with international standards and safety regulations. The authorities may be firm that existing tank farms follow the rules on safety, aside from that I don’t think there’s anything anyone can do about it. There must also be effective monitoring and compliance by the federal government.
Between 2015 to this year, Satellite Town now plays host to 25 operating tank farms, and government is talking about co-existing, they seem to be concerned about revenue compared to citizens’ safety. What’s your take on that?
It’s like some agencies are concerned with generating revenue which includes the Customs but in some civilised countries, it’s trade facilitation. The primary function should be trade facilitation yet we overtax and outdo other agencies. So, we’ll just keep talking maybe one day they’ll hear.
Is Nigeria a maritime nation?
Yes, Nigeria is a maritime nation. That we are surviving today is because we’re not a landlocked country, even though it’s not being managed effectively. Most of the oil Wells are offshore, development follows water but it’s so unfortunate that we’re not adding value to what God has blessed us with so Nigeria is indeed a maritime nation. Our generation because of our attitude may not harvest the blessings of being a maritime nation but it is. What do we mean by a maritime nation? We have the resources, we have transportation where our exports and trade come by but whether we are smart enough to reap from all these blessings depends on the perspective we see it from but the potentials are there. I’ve mentioned the opportunities in fishing, as big as we are as a nation we do not have Turner vessels and I keep saying that we all love to eat canned Turner. If we have just one Turner vessel do you know how many people would be employed, do you know how many factories would spring up? Do you know how much we spend importing canned Turner into this country? It breaks my heart. We should wake up and look around and add value to all these blessings.
Talking about adding value to fish, , is there any way the by-products are processed in Nigeria for Nigerians?
We export the shellfish, i.e lobsters, prawns etc. We buy our equipment in dollar and the market really for those products are the international market. I’m in business because of profits so I don’t see why I would have that opportunity to sell 1kg of prawns for $30 and in Nigeria, I can’t even get it for #500. All the fish products like croaker, catfish etc. are for the local market because that’s where the demand is. The point is, there’s a huge gap between demand and supply and there’s also something going on because to encourage the growth of local fish and even the cultured catfish they should go slow in issuing licenses for the importation of cheap products to encourage locally produced fish. They must ensure the handling, packaging, the chemical and every other thing used in preserving this fish are done properly. The health of the common man should be very important just as they monitor product exports in Europe to ensure conformity and compliance to standards.
Are you worried that sourcing of fishes for export over time could become scarce?
Industrial fishing is regulated everywhere in the world, because I carry that certificate, I am being monitored. I fish in a regulated manner and I report every catch. What I’m trying to say, fishing is structured and regulated. The standard is that I do not use a net that would catch the little ones and I do not use a net that would catch the large ones that lay the golden egg. They can ban Nigeria today if they discover that one vessel has run foul of that so all eyes are on our activities by the Nigerian government, the European Union and America. So that brings me to this question, who monitors poachers? Where are they coming from to steal our natural resources? They catch from bottom to top, they catch irresponsibly and go and we’re telling them it’s very easy to catch them because the beauty of the ocean is that any product when analysed can reveal the environment it’s coming from so they can catch them. Why are they providing markets for them? And that’s why we must jointly fight it.
The Nigerian Shippers’ Council has come under a new leadership; can we set agenda for the new executive secretary?
I do not envy anybody that steps into Hassan Bello’s shoes. Hassan Bello did a lot, he could make anybody move. A typical example I have given and I’ll never grow tired of saying it, during the peak of COVID-19, Hassan stood and mobilised everybody. I give him lots of credit that the ports remained open. He didn’t care if you’re a board member as long as your line rings he’ll tell you I’m at your gate come outside and let’s go. Such leadership in humility, we all followed him, the enforcers I don’t know what they are looking for during the COVID-19 that they’ll stop people going into the port even with essential tag duty. Hassan will run there to make sure that they’re released. For somebody like me, that was when I appreciated the different arms operating in the port. A good leader that put his safety behind him, it’s difficult to get somebody like him. One good thing about Hassan is that he also shares his knowledge; he’s forever there to help. So, the new executive secretary is a lucky man to have taken over from Hassan Bello. I can tell you if he humbles himself and seek advice from his predecessor he’ll make way. NSC is the heartbeat of all other agencies in the Ministry of Transportation, technical and professionalism is their watchword. So, the new boss will be inheriting a huge staff, so this dedicated management staff and our guardian angel in the person of Hassan Bello will always be there to ensure that NCS will be on that progressive part. So, that makes it easier for all of us.